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	<title>Comments on: Police Brutality Back on the Agenda</title>
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	<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html</link>
	<description>Free Trade and Free Minds. Politics for Reasonable People. Independent Political Blogging. Top 20 Blog. Libertarianism. Laser Kitties.</description>
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		<title>By: Bunny Smedley</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1623</link>
		<dc:creator>Bunny Smedley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 08:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1623</guid>
		<description>To the extent that police action caused Ian Tomlinson&#039;s death, this is appalling. The individual(s) responsible should be held to account and action should be taken to ensure that all UK forces learn whatever lessons there are to be gleaned from this wretched event.

On the other hand, when we&#039;re assigning blame - and Charlotte, you&#039;re surely right to stress the ambiguity of the video - isn&#039;t it worth giving a bit of thought to the troublemakers who have spent weeks contextualising the G20 protests as a locus for violent confrontation, who provoked multiple confrontations with police at the protests, and who did so much to create the conditions in which one confused, possibly mentally disturbed long-time alcoholic ended up behaving in a way that may have appeared pointedly obstructive, rather than just a bit sad and silly? 

This isn&#039;t, to repeat, about letting the police off the hook. Assault is assault, and we rightly expect those who enforce the law to behave with more patience, forebearance and self-restraint than the rest of the general public. 

Personally, I didn&#039;t go anywhere near the G20 protests, because it seemed clear that they would be violent. (Obviously there were some peaceful protesters there, too, but it doesn&#039;t take many violent thugs to make a nice decent protest go very badly wrong.) The police, responding to the tone of the troublemakers&#039; organisational efforts, came prepared for violence. And indeed, the protests WERE violent - there was plenty of television footage showing rioters armed with scaffolding poles, hammers and so forth, taking swings at the police line, as well as that odd business about protesters carrying police uniforms - obviously ready to generate bit of &#039;police brutality&#039; themselves.

The police, as usually happens, were trying to do their job - protecting life and property - although it seems possible, in the Tomlinson case, that a few of them failed to uphold the standards we expect of them. What were the more violent &#039;protesters&#039; trying to do, though? Nothing positive, that&#039;s for sure. Actually, I am pretty sure that the worst of them would have been absolutely delighted that Tomlinson died, because it gave them another rhetorical means by which to pursue their &#039;anarchist&#039; goals, such as these are. (The fact that most of them wouldn&#039;t last ten minutes in conditions of real anarchy is neither here nor there.)

Ultimately, then, if Ian Tomlinson&#039;s death was anyone&#039;s fault - rather than just the tragic conclusion of a life curtailed by addiction, homelessness and mental illness - we should perhaps remember why there were 5,000 police drafted into London in the first place, at enormous expense and considerable inconvenience, expected to deal not only with counter-terrorism, protection of visiting dignitaries and the usual police workload, but also this wholly unnecessary, wholly pointless troublemaking from some of the most useless, morally vacant people out there. Please, let&#039;s not play these morons&#039; game by launching into the &#039;police brutality&#039; refrain too soon, as the useful idiots at the Guardian &amp; Co were so quick to do - for all their various and several faults, the police simply were not the worst enemies of life and liberty out on the streets that day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the extent that police action caused Ian Tomlinson&#8217;s death, this is appalling. The individual(s) responsible should be held to account and action should be taken to ensure that all UK forces learn whatever lessons there are to be gleaned from this wretched event.</p>
<p>On the other hand, when we&#8217;re assigning blame &#8211; and Charlotte, you&#8217;re surely right to stress the ambiguity of the video &#8211; isn&#8217;t it worth giving a bit of thought to the troublemakers who have spent weeks contextualising the G20 protests as a locus for violent confrontation, who provoked multiple confrontations with police at the protests, and who did so much to create the conditions in which one confused, possibly mentally disturbed long-time alcoholic ended up behaving in a way that may have appeared pointedly obstructive, rather than just a bit sad and silly? </p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t, to repeat, about letting the police off the hook. Assault is assault, and we rightly expect those who enforce the law to behave with more patience, forebearance and self-restraint than the rest of the general public. </p>
<p>Personally, I didn&#8217;t go anywhere near the G20 protests, because it seemed clear that they would be violent. (Obviously there were some peaceful protesters there, too, but it doesn&#8217;t take many violent thugs to make a nice decent protest go very badly wrong.) The police, responding to the tone of the troublemakers&#8217; organisational efforts, came prepared for violence. And indeed, the protests WERE violent &#8211; there was plenty of television footage showing rioters armed with scaffolding poles, hammers and so forth, taking swings at the police line, as well as that odd business about protesters carrying police uniforms &#8211; obviously ready to generate bit of &#8216;police brutality&#8217; themselves.</p>
<p>The police, as usually happens, were trying to do their job &#8211; protecting life and property &#8211; although it seems possible, in the Tomlinson case, that a few of them failed to uphold the standards we expect of them. What were the more violent &#8216;protesters&#8217; trying to do, though? Nothing positive, that&#8217;s for sure. Actually, I am pretty sure that the worst of them would have been absolutely delighted that Tomlinson died, because it gave them another rhetorical means by which to pursue their &#8216;anarchist&#8217; goals, such as these are. (The fact that most of them wouldn&#8217;t last ten minutes in conditions of real anarchy is neither here nor there.)</p>
<p>Ultimately, then, if Ian Tomlinson&#8217;s death was anyone&#8217;s fault &#8211; rather than just the tragic conclusion of a life curtailed by addiction, homelessness and mental illness &#8211; we should perhaps remember why there were 5,000 police drafted into London in the first place, at enormous expense and considerable inconvenience, expected to deal not only with counter-terrorism, protection of visiting dignitaries and the usual police workload, but also this wholly unnecessary, wholly pointless troublemaking from some of the most useless, morally vacant people out there. Please, let&#8217;s not play these morons&#8217; game by launching into the &#8216;police brutality&#8217; refrain too soon, as the useful idiots at the Guardian &amp; Co were so quick to do &#8211; for all their various and several faults, the police simply were not the worst enemies of life and liberty out on the streets that day.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry North London</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1592</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry North London</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1592</guid>
		<description>The objective was to make an example of someone  Some hotheaded young thug in the police was aching for some action and instigated it out of sheer boredom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The objective was to make an example of someone  Some hotheaded young thug in the police was aching for some action and instigated it out of sheer boredom</p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte Gore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1591</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Gore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1591</guid>
		<description>I think the &#039;clear and present&#039; danger argument is a strong one here. The level of force seemed unnecessary - unless the objective is intimidation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8216;clear and present&#8217; danger argument is a strong one here. The level of force seemed unnecessary &#8211; unless the objective is intimidation.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Thornhill</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1590</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Thornhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1590</guid>
		<description>Mr Tomlinson was not presenting clear and present danger, so I see no reason why he was whacked on the leg and then immediately shoved. I wonder if anyone knows if the Riot training suggests such actions to bring down people? The whack means the leg is either lifted or &quot;deaded&quot;, then the shove pushes the CG beyond the other leg, leaving no option but a fall.

It appears unnecessary. If it were a yob doing this I would want to see Manslaughter charges. Technically Mr Tomlinson was the one being obstructed, AFAICT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Tomlinson was not presenting clear and present danger, so I see no reason why he was whacked on the leg and then immediately shoved. I wonder if anyone knows if the Riot training suggests such actions to bring down people? The whack means the leg is either lifted or &#8220;deaded&#8221;, then the shove pushes the CG beyond the other leg, leaving no option but a fall.</p>
<p>It appears unnecessary. If it were a yob doing this I would want to see Manslaughter charges. Technically Mr Tomlinson was the one being obstructed, AFAICT.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte Gore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1585</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Gore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1585</guid>
		<description>Me neither. I read LFAT&#039;s interpretation and was amazed. Very different, but it technically fits. I think the point is that we&#039;d need to know a lot more and see further into the past. I don&#039;t even think you can presume the police intended to put him on the floor. If the man hadn&#039;t died, would this video ever have seen the light?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me neither. I read LFAT&#8217;s interpretation and was amazed. Very different, but it technically fits. I think the point is that we&#8217;d need to know a lot more and see further into the past. I don&#8217;t even think you can presume the police intended to put him on the floor. If the man hadn&#8217;t died, would this video ever have seen the light?</p>
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		<title>By: Stu</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1583</link>
		<dc:creator>Stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1583</guid>
		<description>...Although, I&#039;m not &lt;em&gt;sure&lt;/em&gt; on your description of Tomlinson&#039;s demeanour. It could also be interpreted as deliberately slowing the police down and antagonising them. If this hits courts expect professional body language experts to come out of the woodwork and reliably inform us of his guilt. And his innocence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;Although, I&#8217;m not <em>sure</em> on your description of Tomlinson&#8217;s demeanour. It could also be interpreted as deliberately slowing the police down and antagonising them. If this hits courts expect professional body language experts to come out of the woodwork and reliably inform us of his guilt. And his innocence.</p>
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		<title>By: Stu</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/04/08/police-brutality-back-on-the-agenda.html/comment-page-1#comment-1582</link>
		<dc:creator>Stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=386#comment-1582</guid>
		<description>YES! Somebody got it right. Finally.

Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YES! Somebody got it right. Finally.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
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