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	<title>Comments on: On Liberty, 150 Years On</title>
	<atom:link href="http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html</link>
	<description>Free Trade and Free Minds. Politics for Reasonable People. Independent Political Blogging. Top 20 Blog. Libertarianism. Laser Kitties.</description>
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		<title>By: Roger Thornhill</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3269</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Thornhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3269</guid>
		<description>Rawls appears to be talking about justice in the social sphere - justice for  individuals, and as such his view is similar to JS Mill&#039;s AFAICT.

The term &quot;social justice&quot; is like &quot;deprivation&quot; and &quot;progressive&quot; - distorted, hijacked terms used to further some squalid Leftie agenda that cannot exist without a nice term to shield it from the sunlight. 

&quot;social&quot; in the second context is the mob, the majority, the squeaky wheels and ax-grinders. Hence, damnable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rawls appears to be talking about justice in the social sphere &#8211; justice for  individuals, and as such his view is similar to JS Mill&#8217;s AFAICT.</p>
<p>The term &#8220;social justice&#8221; is like &#8220;deprivation&#8221; and &#8220;progressive&#8221; &#8211; distorted, hijacked terms used to further some squalid Leftie agenda that cannot exist without a nice term to shield it from the sunlight. </p>
<p>&#8220;social&#8221; in the second context is the mob, the majority, the squeaky wheels and ax-grinders. Hence, damnable.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Hill</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3267</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 14:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3267</guid>
		<description>Bu coincidence, I have an &quot;On Liberty&quot; project nearing completion (although it&#039;s fair to say it&#039;s been at that state for over a year). Must finish it off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bu coincidence, I have an &#8220;On Liberty&#8221; project nearing completion (although it&#8217;s fair to say it&#8217;s been at that state for over a year). Must finish it off.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte Gore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3262</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Gore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 12:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3262</guid>
		<description>Well, yes :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Stu</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3258</link>
		<dc:creator>Stu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 10:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3258</guid>
		<description>That would be because you *were* being a smart arse, Charlotte :-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be because you *were* being a smart arse, Charlotte <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte Gore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3257</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Gore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 09:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3257</guid>
		<description>Funnily enough I used that same quote from Rawls against &#039;Social Justice&#039; as we know it and was accused of being a smart arse ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funnily enough I used that same quote from Rawls against &#8216;Social Justice&#8217; as we know it and was accused of being a smart arse <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3255</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 09:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3255</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I thought you meant (social) welfare by &quot;social justice&quot;, as the left always do. (This is the problem with being surrounded by student Marxists!)

So what exactly does social justice mean? Rawls seems to make a statement that runs counter to the idea that social justice involves restricting individual rights for the good of society: &quot;Each person possesses an inviolability founded on justice that even the welfare of society as a whole cannot override. For this reason justice denies that the loss of freedom for some is made right by a greater good shared by others.&quot; (From &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice&quot; title=&quot;Social justice&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt;.)

And yet when it is used in political discourse &quot;social justice&quot; usually involves minimum wages, redistribution of wealth and strongly progressive taxation. What does it mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I thought you meant (social) welfare by &#8220;social justice&#8221;, as the left always do. (This is the problem with being surrounded by student Marxists!)</p>
<p>So what exactly does social justice mean? Rawls seems to make a statement that runs counter to the idea that social justice involves restricting individual rights for the good of society: &#8220;Each person possesses an inviolability founded on justice that even the welfare of society as a whole cannot override. For this reason justice denies that the loss of freedom for some is made right by a greater good shared by others.&#8221; (From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice" title="Social justice" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>.)</p>
<p>And yet when it is used in political discourse &#8220;social justice&#8221; usually involves minimum wages, redistribution of wealth and strongly progressive taxation. What does it mean?</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Thornhill</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3254</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Thornhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 09:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3254</guid>
		<description>Niklas, 

You are conflating Welfare with Social Justice/Social Rights. Social Justice is built upon Social Rights, btw, so once JS Mill kicks Social Rights away, Social Justice has no foundation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niklas, </p>
<p>You are conflating Welfare with Social Justice/Social Rights. Social Justice is built upon Social Rights, btw, so once JS Mill kicks Social Rights away, Social Justice has no foundation.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3251</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 08:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3251</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately the link to Chapter XI seems not to include the quotation I used - see this link for the whole book: http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/101</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately the link to Chapter XI seems not to include the quotation I used &#8211; see this link for the whole book: <a href="http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/101" rel="nofollow">http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/101</a></p>
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		<title>By: Niklas Smith</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3249</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 08:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3249</guid>
		<description>@Roger Thornhill: Actually, Mill&#039;s discussion of the idea of &quot;social rights&quot; is entirely in the context of his disagreement with arguments for the prohibition of alcohol - see &lt;a href=&quot;http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/347/5979&quot; title=&quot;On Liberty, Chapter IV&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;chapter 4&lt;/a&gt; (do a search for &quot;social rights&quot; and you will find the relevant paragraph).

Mill doesn&#039;t really discuss &quot;social justice&quot;; the phrase doesn&#039;t appear in &lt;i&gt;On Liberty&lt;/i&gt;. In fact he argues, in the beginning of chapter 5, that the argument for free markets rests on a different foundation from the argument for individual liberty, and that in principle society may regulate the economy:

&lt;i&gt;This is the so-called doctrine of Free Trade, which rests on grounds different from, though equally solid with, the principle of individual liberty asserted in this Essay. Restrictions on trade, or on production for purposes of trade, are indeed restraints; and all restraint, quâ restraint, is an evil: but the restraints in question affect only that part of conduct which society is competent to restrain, and are wrong solely because they do not really produce the results which it is desired to produce by them.&lt;/i&gt;

(The above argument is actually one area in which I disagree with Mill - individual liberty &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; have an impact on whether certain regulations of the economy are right in principle, as Johan Norberg has argued.)

In other writings such as &lt;i&gt;Principles of Political Economy&lt;/i&gt; (1848) Mill does go into more detail on economics, and there he does concern himself with economics and equity. For example, he wrote: &quot;I conceive it to be highly desirable, that the certainty of subsistence should be held out by law to the destitute able-bodied.... Since the state must necessarily provide subsistence for the criminal poor while undergoing punishment, not to do the same for the poor who have not offended is to give a premium on crime.&quot; (&lt;a href=&quot;http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/101/36243&quot; title=&quot;Principles of Political Economy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chapter XI&lt;/a&gt;, §13.)

However, the general thrust of his thought seems to be that it would be better to reform capitalism (for example by taxing inheritance punitively and &quot;life incomes&quot; less) than to opt for socialism - not least because socialism would threat the individuality and diversity that he so treasures.

Sorry for the length of the comment, but Mill is fascinating and I easily get carried away :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Roger Thornhill: Actually, Mill&#8217;s discussion of the idea of &#8220;social rights&#8221; is entirely in the context of his disagreement with arguments for the prohibition of alcohol &#8211; see <a href="http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/347/5979" title="On Liberty, Chapter IV" rel="nofollow">chapter 4</a> (do a search for &#8220;social rights&#8221; and you will find the relevant paragraph).</p>
<p>Mill doesn&#8217;t really discuss &#8220;social justice&#8221;; the phrase doesn&#8217;t appear in <i>On Liberty</i>. In fact he argues, in the beginning of chapter 5, that the argument for free markets rests on a different foundation from the argument for individual liberty, and that in principle society may regulate the economy:</p>
<p><i>This is the so-called doctrine of Free Trade, which rests on grounds different from, though equally solid with, the principle of individual liberty asserted in this Essay. Restrictions on trade, or on production for purposes of trade, are indeed restraints; and all restraint, quâ restraint, is an evil: but the restraints in question affect only that part of conduct which society is competent to restrain, and are wrong solely because they do not really produce the results which it is desired to produce by them.</i></p>
<p>(The above argument is actually one area in which I disagree with Mill &#8211; individual liberty <i>does</i> have an impact on whether certain regulations of the economy are right in principle, as Johan Norberg has argued.)</p>
<p>In other writings such as <i>Principles of Political Economy</i> (1848) Mill does go into more detail on economics, and there he does concern himself with economics and equity. For example, he wrote: &#8220;I conceive it to be highly desirable, that the certainty of subsistence should be held out by law to the destitute able-bodied&#8230;. Since the state must necessarily provide subsistence for the criminal poor while undergoing punishment, not to do the same for the poor who have not offended is to give a premium on crime.&#8221; (<a href="http://oll.libertyfund.org/title/101/36243" title="Principles of Political Economy" rel="nofollow">Chapter XI</a>, §13.)</p>
<p>However, the general thrust of his thought seems to be that it would be better to reform capitalism (for example by taxing inheritance punitively and &#8220;life incomes&#8221; less) than to opt for socialism &#8211; not least because socialism would threat the individuality and diversity that he so treasures.</p>
<p>Sorry for the length of the comment, but Mill is fascinating and I easily get carried away <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Roger Thornhill</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/05/14/on-liberty-150-years-on.html/comment-page-1#comment-3231</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Thornhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=898#comment-3231</guid>
		<description>Maybe the first thing to do is direct them to JS Mill&#039;s view on Social Rights (and thus, Social Justice).

Thing is, if they heeded that, then they would be at odds with their party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the first thing to do is direct them to JS Mill&#8217;s view on Social Rights (and thus, Social Justice).</p>
<p>Thing is, if they heeded that, then they would be at odds with their party.</p>
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