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	<title>Comments on: One by One, Train Operators Fail</title>
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	<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html</link>
	<description>Free Trade and Free Minds. Politics for Reasonable People. Independent Political Blogging. Top 20 Blog. Libertarianism. Laser Kitties.</description>
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		<title>By: Liberal Eye</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5339</link>
		<dc:creator>Liberal Eye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5339</guid>
		<description>Simon Jenkins, who used to be a Board member of the old British Rail until 1990, has pointed out that at the time of privatization in 1994 BR&#039;s subsidy from government was £267 million (down from £557m in 1990) and it was the most cost-efficient operator in Europe. Had it remained in the public sector the huge gowth in rail travel in the late 90s (which was not foreseen) would have made it profitable.  

In fact, ten years after privatization the subsidy was five times greater in real terms and punctuality and public satisfaction were down.

Under BR the West Coast Main Line was profitable; after it was franchised to Branson&#039;s Virgin Group it received a guaranteed subsidy of £400 million over two years.

A sorry tale indeed.  But surely the lesson is that things can work perfectly well in the state sector and that devising all sorts of clever structures will not make competition magically happen when the structure of an industry (as in most if not all infrastructure businesses) militates against competition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon Jenkins, who used to be a Board member of the old British Rail until 1990, has pointed out that at the time of privatization in 1994 BR&#8217;s subsidy from government was £267 million (down from £557m in 1990) and it was the most cost-efficient operator in Europe. Had it remained in the public sector the huge gowth in rail travel in the late 90s (which was not foreseen) would have made it profitable.  </p>
<p>In fact, ten years after privatization the subsidy was five times greater in real terms and punctuality and public satisfaction were down.</p>
<p>Under BR the West Coast Main Line was profitable; after it was franchised to Branson&#8217;s Virgin Group it received a guaranteed subsidy of £400 million over two years.</p>
<p>A sorry tale indeed.  But surely the lesson is that things can work perfectly well in the state sector and that devising all sorts of clever structures will not make competition magically happen when the structure of an industry (as in most if not all infrastructure businesses) militates against competition.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Howes</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5335</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Howes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5335</guid>
		<description>Joe,

I agree.

I too am sceptical of the way they can even compete - except of course for the franchise itself, just as Alix pointed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>I too am sceptical of the way they can even compete &#8211; except of course for the franchise itself, just as Alix pointed out.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Otten</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5332</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Otten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 08:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5332</guid>
		<description>The government doesn&#039;t set the price for the franchise - it is a competitive auction. If it did set a price, and it was too high, then nobody would take up the franchise.

There is a problem, perhaps related, that the franchise usually goes to the highest bidder, even if they offer a poorer service. Midland Mainline ran one of the best services, but lost their franchise to East Midlands Trains. So I suppose &#039;capping the franchise&#039; may be a way to get companies to compete to offer the best service. But I am skeptical of how well we can hold a company to a service level commitment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The government doesn&#8217;t set the price for the franchise &#8211; it is a competitive auction. If it did set a price, and it was too high, then nobody would take up the franchise.</p>
<p>There is a problem, perhaps related, that the franchise usually goes to the highest bidder, even if they offer a poorer service. Midland Mainline ran one of the best services, but lost their franchise to East Midlands Trains. So I suppose &#8216;capping the franchise&#8217; may be a way to get companies to compete to offer the best service. But I am skeptical of how well we can hold a company to a service level commitment.</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Howes</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5327</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Howes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5327</guid>
		<description>Hmmm
I was under the impression that the &quot;nationalisation&quot; was really more of a repossession of the franchise from a company unable to pay for it - indeed, a company that had the cheek to ask for a renegotiation of the contract! That hardly seems a bad thing for free-market types - although not an exact analogy, isn&#039;t that just a bit like a bank repossessing a home when a debtor fails to pay?

From what I can tell, part of the problem is that government sets an extraordinarily high price for the franchise. Although the companies may otherwise be profitable, this high price tends to make them net loss-makers.

Having a butcher&#039;s over at Tom Harris&#039; blog (and to my surprise I find that he used to be railways minister!), it seems that another problem arises over the use of capping. He seems to find it odd that the Conservatives would cap franchise payments (I suppose those are effectively &#039;rents&#039;), but not subsidies to the weaker, less profitable lines.

Although the capping, or at least the reduction of the franchise does actually sound like a good thing (the money apparently goes into a fund for upgrading the network, but I wonder if the profits of the companies would be better spent on their own internal investment), and would at least allow more of the companies to make a profit; the capping or at least the reduction of the subsidies also seems a good idea, forcing them to improve or else be weeded out as they start making an unsustainable loss. (Presumably then being &quot;renationalised&quot; or rather, repossessed, when they fail so that there&#039;s no interruption in service)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm<br />
I was under the impression that the &#8220;nationalisation&#8221; was really more of a repossession of the franchise from a company unable to pay for it &#8211; indeed, a company that had the cheek to ask for a renegotiation of the contract! That hardly seems a bad thing for free-market types &#8211; although not an exact analogy, isn&#8217;t that just a bit like a bank repossessing a home when a debtor fails to pay?</p>
<p>From what I can tell, part of the problem is that government sets an extraordinarily high price for the franchise. Although the companies may otherwise be profitable, this high price tends to make them net loss-makers.</p>
<p>Having a butcher&#8217;s over at Tom Harris&#8217; blog (and to my surprise I find that he used to be railways minister!), it seems that another problem arises over the use of capping. He seems to find it odd that the Conservatives would cap franchise payments (I suppose those are effectively &#8216;rents&#8217;), but not subsidies to the weaker, less profitable lines.</p>
<p>Although the capping, or at least the reduction of the franchise does actually sound like a good thing (the money apparently goes into a fund for upgrading the network, but I wonder if the profits of the companies would be better spent on their own internal investment), and would at least allow more of the companies to make a profit; the capping or at least the reduction of the subsidies also seems a good idea, forcing them to improve or else be weeded out as they start making an unsustainable loss. (Presumably then being &#8220;renationalised&#8221; or rather, repossessed, when they fail so that there&#8217;s no interruption in service)</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Otten</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5317</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Otten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5317</guid>
		<description>Iain M Banks culture series is a good exploration of the post-scarcity anarchist society.

Although it isn&#039;t so anarchist when you scratch the surface, and that&#039;s what makes it interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iain M Banks culture series is a good exploration of the post-scarcity anarchist society.</p>
<p>Although it isn&#8217;t so anarchist when you scratch the surface, and that&#8217;s what makes it interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Alix</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5316</link>
		<dc:creator>Alix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5316</guid>
		<description>What is it we&#039;re supposed to be upset by? Or is this another libertarian who thinks liberals = wet lefties? 

It&#039;s an intriguing idea, the end of resource shortages. It&#039;s certainly true that politics &lt;i&gt;thus far&lt;/i&gt; has evolved to deal with allocating resources, but the set of behaviours that we call politics would surely just evolve to be played around something else that was still in finite supply (viz, love?) Little girls at school play politics with each when no actual resources are at stake. Wouldn&#039;t that just become the adult norm? :-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it we&#8217;re supposed to be upset by? Or is this another libertarian who thinks liberals = wet lefties? </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an intriguing idea, the end of resource shortages. It&#8217;s certainly true that politics <i>thus far</i> has evolved to deal with allocating resources, but the set of behaviours that we call politics would surely just evolve to be played around something else that was still in finite supply (viz, love?) Little girls at school play politics with each when no actual resources are at stake. Wouldn&#8217;t that just become the adult norm? <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte Gore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Gore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>Well I wouldn&#039;t be happy with infinite everything. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I wouldn&#8217;t be happy with infinite everything. <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jake Motta</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Motta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>Of course socialism will die out, we&#039;ll all become Marxists...

Seriously, all ideologies are doomed as none is a perfect fit for society and once implemented disenfranchise a meaningful minority... the only solution is ensure all resources that people want are infinite in supply terms then everyone will pretty much be happy... the end of history or at least politics (Thanks Mr Fukuyama)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course socialism will die out, we&#8217;ll all become Marxists&#8230;</p>
<p>Seriously, all ideologies are doomed as none is a perfect fit for society and once implemented disenfranchise a meaningful minority&#8230; the only solution is ensure all resources that people want are infinite in supply terms then everyone will pretty much be happy&#8230; the end of history or at least politics (Thanks Mr Fukuyama)</p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte Gore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5311</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte Gore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5311</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s pretty much up to individuals to decide what they want on public display :)

For what it&#039;s worth I think Socialism will die out eventually - problem is people thinking what we have is something else, and that &#039;socialism&#039; is something else entirely. Not really able to understand what that might be though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s pretty much up to individuals to decide what they want on public display <img src='http://charlottegore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth I think Socialism will die out eventually &#8211; problem is people thinking what we have is something else, and that &#8217;socialism&#8217; is something else entirely. Not really able to understand what that might be though.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Otten</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/07/01/one-by-one-train-operators-fail.html/comment-page-1#comment-5310</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Otten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1198#comment-5310</guid>
		<description>David is a spoof, right?

Anyway, as with the banks, this is nationalising a loss. The profits - the other franchises in the group - are staying private.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David is a spoof, right?</p>
<p>Anyway, as with the banks, this is nationalising a loss. The profits &#8211; the other franchises in the group &#8211; are staying private.</p>
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