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	<title>Comments on: Energy, Minister?</title>
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	<description>Free Trade and Free Minds. Politics for Reasonable People. Independent Political Blogging. Top 20 Blog. Libertarianism. Laser Kitties.</description>
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		<title>By: Richard T</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6753</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6753</guid>
		<description>The stations that may be due to be shut are beyond the normal expectation of operation when they were built - the first started up in the mid 60s and apart from Drax all were operational by the mid 70&#039;s so 40 to 50 years old by 2015.  As I recall a life of around 30-35 years was planned so, in a way the deal with the EU is slightly artifical since they&#039;d be facing closure anyway because the plant is knackered and time expired - dressed up 60&#039;s technology.  

The only choice I can see is to renege on the agreement with the EU and keep the coal fired plant (and the old nukes) running until they fall apart by which time we might have replacements designed and commissioned.

The problem is that there hasn&#039;t been any work on design for new base load plant except the gas fired CCGTs so, assumimg we&#039;re happy to go on burning gas, there isn&#039;t a problem.  If we&#039;re not then there is nothing much else apart from nuclears kindly supplied by EdF and coal fired plant maybe with carbon capture.  Renewables won&#039;t fill the gap in any sensible time horizon of 10 years.  Don&#039;t even think Severn barrage as the silt in suspension in the river will stop that one dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The stations that may be due to be shut are beyond the normal expectation of operation when they were built &#8211; the first started up in the mid 60s and apart from Drax all were operational by the mid 70&#8242;s so 40 to 50 years old by 2015.  As I recall a life of around 30-35 years was planned so, in a way the deal with the EU is slightly artifical since they&#8217;d be facing closure anyway because the plant is knackered and time expired &#8211; dressed up 60&#8242;s technology.  </p>
<p>The only choice I can see is to renege on the agreement with the EU and keep the coal fired plant (and the old nukes) running until they fall apart by which time we might have replacements designed and commissioned.</p>
<p>The problem is that there hasn&#8217;t been any work on design for new base load plant except the gas fired CCGTs so, assumimg we&#8217;re happy to go on burning gas, there isn&#8217;t a problem.  If we&#8217;re not then there is nothing much else apart from nuclears kindly supplied by EdF and coal fired plant maybe with carbon capture.  Renewables won&#8217;t fill the gap in any sensible time horizon of 10 years.  Don&#8217;t even think Severn barrage as the silt in suspension in the river will stop that one dead.</p>
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		<title>By: sconzey</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6747</link>
		<dc:creator>sconzey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 00:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6747</guid>
		<description>Nevertheless, when demand outstrips supplu, allow prices to rise. Demand&#039;s fallen? Higher prices are encouraging investment in supply? 

Job done.

In another story, the Libertarian solution would be to encourage bottom-up entrepreneurial innovation by removing structural impediments like taxes and regulation.

1. It needs to be cheaper to build and run a nuclear power station. Some form of bribery/coasean bargaining should take care of Nimby objections.
2. Great chunks of the national grid can be privatised. Ideally you want it to work something like the internet with packets of energy being routed across the country from areas of low demand and high supply to areas with high demand and low supply.
3. It needs to be cheaper to build and run any kind of power station. CHP on a neighbourhood basis is stupidly efficient. It should be profitable. It&#039;s not profitable, otherwise people would be doing it. Why isn&#039;t it profitable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nevertheless, when demand outstrips supplu, allow prices to rise. Demand&#8217;s fallen? Higher prices are encouraging investment in supply? </p>
<p>Job done.</p>
<p>In another story, the Libertarian solution would be to encourage bottom-up entrepreneurial innovation by removing structural impediments like taxes and regulation.</p>
<p>1. It needs to be cheaper to build and run a nuclear power station. Some form of bribery/coasean bargaining should take care of Nimby objections.<br />
2. Great chunks of the national grid can be privatised. Ideally you want it to work something like the internet with packets of energy being routed across the country from areas of low demand and high supply to areas with high demand and low supply.<br />
3. It needs to be cheaper to build and run any kind of power station. CHP on a neighbourhood basis is stupidly efficient. It should be profitable. It&#8217;s not profitable, otherwise people would be doing it. Why isn&#8217;t it profitable?</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm Todd</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6739</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6739</guid>
		<description>&lt;cite&gt;“[the events] did not happen any the less because the Daily Telegraph has suddenly found out about them…”&lt;/cite&gt;
And if you had any evidence for this story &lt;i&gt;besides&lt;/i&gt; the &lt;i&gt;Daily Telegraph&lt;/i&gt; that would be relevant.
You could, for example, take a look at the government report and appendix that the &lt;i&gt;Telegraph&lt;/i&gt; is talking about. I’m such a sadsack that I did. (That’s an hour of my life I’m never getting back. I’m blaming you for that, Charlotte Gore.) Anyone who’s not interested in calm discussion of actual facts might as well skip the rest of this, ’cause it’s not short.
 It’s at http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/publications/lc_trans_plan/lc_trans_plan.aspx. Search for “unserved” in the pdf, or look for chart 25. Then – because it must by this time be obvious to you that the journalist has completely failed to understand what “expected energy unserved” means (&lt;i&gt;quelle surprise&lt;/i&gt;) – check out this document, which introduces EEU (relax, nothing to do with the Belgian Empire) as a measure of security of supply: http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file41822.pdf. None of it’s easy to understand, and I’d be delighted to hear from an industry expert who can explain it for me. However, some things are clear:

The EEU is &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; less than zero. It’s made that way. That’s not unreasonable: there’s no way of building a system that simply wouldn’t ever fail to meet demand in any conceivable circumstances. Grown-ups should understand this.
The scenario in Chart 25 is better than at least some scenarios envisaged two years ago, in the absence of the new government strategy, which you could spin as meaning that the strategy is expected to rescue us from a potential disaster. (Of course, that would be putting a silly partisan spin on the facts. Which we would never want to do.)
The DT report picks out the two single-year peaks in the graph, and presents those as if it were the future norm, which is quite clearly not the case. (If you believe the government’s figures, that is. But if you don’t, there’s no story in the first place.)
Finally, the potential outages in those two worst years would &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; mean “16 million families being without power for at least one hour during the year” as the DT implies. (By the way, does an average of 30–40 minutes’ power cuts per year sound like the end of civilization to you?) Observe their weasel words “the equivalent of” – industry and even (yes, really) government offices can take the hit, and it’s only “equivalent” to an accountant. At the point where they start talking about “the equivalent of the whole of the Nottingham area being without electricity for a day”, you should remind yourself that we’re talking about electricity supply across the whole of the UK for a year, so the comparison is utterly pointless. (Yesterday, the &lt;i&gt;Guardian&lt;/i&gt; claimed that the amount of ice dropping off the Greenland ice cap was equivalent to “dropping a billion elephants into the ocean”. Top marks for inventive imagery, which is more than can be said for the &lt;i&gt;Telegraph&lt;/i&gt;’s analogies, but &lt;i&gt;nul points&lt;/i&gt; in both cases for meaningfulness.)

In short: a lazy – no, let’s be fair, a time-pressured– journalist for a right-wing newspaper has cobbled together a scare story based on a misunderstanding of a technical appendix and old-fashioned journalistic hyperbole and insinuation. It tells you absolutely nothing about the effectiveness  or otherwise of government strategy on energy, or the effectiveness of government strategising in general. Of course, if you believe that all government planning is either evil, incompetent or both (and if it’s evil, of course, we should be glad that it’s incompetent), then you’ll carry on believing it. But please don’t cite this report as evidence for your belief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><cite>“[the events] did not happen any the less because the Daily Telegraph has suddenly found out about them…”</cite><br />
And if you had any evidence for this story <i>besides</i> the <i>Daily Telegraph</i> that would be relevant.<br />
You could, for example, take a look at the government report and appendix that the <i>Telegraph</i> is talking about. I’m such a sadsack that I did. (That’s an hour of my life I’m never getting back. I’m blaming you for that, Charlotte Gore.) Anyone who’s not interested in calm discussion of actual facts might as well skip the rest of this, ’cause it’s not short.<br />
 It’s at <a href="http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/publications/lc_trans_plan/lc_trans_plan.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/publications/lc_trans_plan/lc_trans_plan.aspx</a>. Search for “unserved” in the pdf, or look for chart 25. Then – because it must by this time be obvious to you that the journalist has completely failed to understand what “expected energy unserved” means (<i>quelle surprise</i>) – check out this document, which introduces EEU (relax, nothing to do with the Belgian Empire) as a measure of security of supply: <a href="http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file41822.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file41822.pdf</a>. None of it’s easy to understand, and I’d be delighted to hear from an industry expert who can explain it for me. However, some things are clear:</p>
<p>The EEU is <i>never</i> less than zero. It’s made that way. That’s not unreasonable: there’s no way of building a system that simply wouldn’t ever fail to meet demand in any conceivable circumstances. Grown-ups should understand this.<br />
The scenario in Chart 25 is better than at least some scenarios envisaged two years ago, in the absence of the new government strategy, which you could spin as meaning that the strategy is expected to rescue us from a potential disaster. (Of course, that would be putting a silly partisan spin on the facts. Which we would never want to do.)<br />
The DT report picks out the two single-year peaks in the graph, and presents those as if it were the future norm, which is quite clearly not the case. (If you believe the government’s figures, that is. But if you don’t, there’s no story in the first place.)<br />
Finally, the potential outages in those two worst years would <i>not</i> mean “16 million families being without power for at least one hour during the year” as the DT implies. (By the way, does an average of 30–40 minutes’ power cuts per year sound like the end of civilization to you?) Observe their weasel words “the equivalent of” – industry and even (yes, really) government offices can take the hit, and it’s only “equivalent” to an accountant. At the point where they start talking about “the equivalent of the whole of the Nottingham area being without electricity for a day”, you should remind yourself that we’re talking about electricity supply across the whole of the UK for a year, so the comparison is utterly pointless. (Yesterday, the <i>Guardian</i> claimed that the amount of ice dropping off the Greenland ice cap was equivalent to “dropping a billion elephants into the ocean”. Top marks for inventive imagery, which is more than can be said for the <i>Telegraph</i>’s analogies, but <i>nul points</i> in both cases for meaningfulness.)</p>
<p>In short: a lazy – no, let’s be fair, a time-pressured– journalist for a right-wing newspaper has cobbled together a scare story based on a misunderstanding of a technical appendix and old-fashioned journalistic hyperbole and insinuation. It tells you absolutely nothing about the effectiveness  or otherwise of government strategy on energy, or the effectiveness of government strategising in general. Of course, if you believe that all government planning is either evil, incompetent or both (and if it’s evil, of course, we should be glad that it’s incompetent), then you’ll carry on believing it. But please don’t cite this report as evidence for your belief.</p>
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		<title>By: The Great Simpleton</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6737</link>
		<dc:creator>The Great Simpleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6737</guid>
		<description>&quot;What action would be taken on climate change and through what mechanisms - would carbon pricing (which needs govt action of some sort) be part of the strategy?&quot;

Follow Stern&#039;s reccomendations of taxing CO2 at $85 per tonne and then let the market decide how to generate electricty. The one thing we do want is for the world to be a lot richer as the climate changes naturally and power cuts aint going to help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What action would be taken on climate change and through what mechanisms &#8211; would carbon pricing (which needs govt action of some sort) be part of the strategy?&#8221;</p>
<p>Follow Stern&#8217;s reccomendations of taxing CO2 at $85 per tonne and then let the market decide how to generate electricty. The one thing we do want is for the world to be a lot richer as the climate changes naturally and power cuts aint going to help.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Hughes</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6731</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6731</guid>
		<description>Just to remind posters of Orwell&#039;s words:

&quot;[the events] did not happen any the less because the &lt;i&gt;Daily Telegraph&lt;/i&gt; has suddenly found out about them...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to remind posters of Orwell&#8217;s words:</p>
<p>&#8220;[the events] did not happen any the less because the <i>Daily Telegraph</i> has suddenly found out about them&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Thornhill</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6721</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Thornhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6721</guid>
		<description>Banning electric ovens and heaters? What, so people use, er, gas?

The Libertarian solution is to reduce or remove State distortions, so by just ignoring the recent codswallop EU directives would be Libertarian. 

One would need to remove prohibitions on use of and mining of, say, coal. I would think that the UK has enough coal to last it until Fusion is in production and hundreds of years beyond.

However, War is Peace, so the spooked up &quot;oops&quot; no power will be used as an excuse to TAX us, to CONTROL us, to MONITOR us and to make us ask permission for living.


I am coming to the conclusion that the Socialists/Fabians and  Statists in general have not got over the &quot;golden age&quot; of Wartime Britain where they had the most control. Britain had an almost total War Economy, almost the entire means of production mobilised. Global Warming along with &quot;Turrr&quot; is the new Fascism. Oh! The irony!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Banning electric ovens and heaters? What, so people use, er, gas?</p>
<p>The Libertarian solution is to reduce or remove State distortions, so by just ignoring the recent codswallop EU directives would be Libertarian. </p>
<p>One would need to remove prohibitions on use of and mining of, say, coal. I would think that the UK has enough coal to last it until Fusion is in production and hundreds of years beyond.</p>
<p>However, War is Peace, so the spooked up &#8220;oops&#8221; no power will be used as an excuse to TAX us, to CONTROL us, to MONITOR us and to make us ask permission for living.</p>
<p>I am coming to the conclusion that the Socialists/Fabians and  Statists in general have not got over the &#8220;golden age&#8221; of Wartime Britain where they had the most control. Britain had an almost total War Economy, almost the entire means of production mobilised. Global Warming along with &#8220;Turrr&#8221; is the new Fascism. Oh! The irony!</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Byrne</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6720</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 17:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6720</guid>
		<description>This made me giggle immensely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This made me giggle immensely.</p>
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		<title>By: Newmania</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6694</link>
		<dc:creator>Newmania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6694</guid>
		<description>PS On Natural Gas
&quot;A proper global market for natural gas is also rapidly emerging. But unlike the oil market, it has no Opec cartel to dominate it. Previously, gas was only moved about by pipelines and customers had to accept what they were given. But the world pipeline system is being augmented by Liquified Natural Gas, or LNG, which comes in frozen on ships. The difference is absolutely crucial because LNG cargoes can be redirected, and that means they can be traded.Indeed, the average cargo is probably traded tens, if not hundreds, of times and can change course frequently before it reaches its destination.

So, if some nasty character at the end of a pipeline starts to turn it off, the customer can at last say: &quot;Hah. I will simply get my gas from somewhere else, where they have democracy and the rule 
of law.&quot; 

All is not lost then


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/6100536/A-new-age-of-cheap-energy-approaches.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS On Natural Gas<br />
&#8220;A proper global market for natural gas is also rapidly emerging. But unlike the oil market, it has no Opec cartel to dominate it. Previously, gas was only moved about by pipelines and customers had to accept what they were given. But the world pipeline system is being augmented by Liquified Natural Gas, or LNG, which comes in frozen on ships. The difference is absolutely crucial because LNG cargoes can be redirected, and that means they can be traded.Indeed, the average cargo is probably traded tens, if not hundreds, of times and can change course frequently before it reaches its destination.</p>
<p>So, if some nasty character at the end of a pipeline starts to turn it off, the customer can at last say: &#8220;Hah. I will simply get my gas from somewhere else, where they have democracy and the rule<br />
of law.&#8221; </p>
<p>All is not lost then</p>
<p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/6100536/A-new-age-of-cheap-energy-approaches.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/6100536/A-new-age-of-cheap-energy-approaches.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Newmania</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6693</link>
		<dc:creator>Newmania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6693</guid>
		<description>It looks to me  as if  our big mistake was to  fail to invest in Nuclear.I blame the  Liberal constituency for this , I gather that gas is going to provide a  cheap  and expanding source  in the near future  though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks to me  as if  our big mistake was to  fail to invest in Nuclear.I blame the  Liberal constituency for this , I gather that gas is going to provide a  cheap  and expanding source  in the near future  though.</p>
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		<title>By: Man in a Shed</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/09/01/energy-minister.html/comment-page-1#comment-6691</link>
		<dc:creator>Man in a Shed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1505#comment-6691</guid>
		<description>There is another possible explanation. Labour are deliberately trying to engineer a crisis in the future.

This is one of the two explanations that fit the facts, either:

1) Labour minister are exceptionally and unnaturally stupid and incapable of listening to a word of the advice their civil servants give them.
2) They are still revolutionaries, as they were in their youth, and are looking to generate a large crisis to justify an authoritarian socialist utopia.

I&#039;ve worked around this area and can tell you everyone who has any dealings with gas and electricity supply has known a crunch is coming for at least 15 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is another possible explanation. Labour are deliberately trying to engineer a crisis in the future.</p>
<p>This is one of the two explanations that fit the facts, either:</p>
<p>1) Labour minister are exceptionally and unnaturally stupid and incapable of listening to a word of the advice their civil servants give them.<br />
2) They are still revolutionaries, as they were in their youth, and are looking to generate a large crisis to justify an authoritarian socialist utopia.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve worked around this area and can tell you everyone who has any dealings with gas and electricity supply has known a crunch is coming for at least 15 years.</p>
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