Comments on: Guest Post: The Undemocratic Nature of the BNP http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html Free Trade and Free Minds. Politics for Reasonable People. Independent Political Blogging. Top 20 Blog. Libertarianism. Laser Kitties. Tue, 10 May 2011 21:47:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Gregory Carlin http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8299 Gregory Carlin Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:34:59 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8299 When you bus Roxbury kids into Southie, you get poor whites on welfare voting for reaganomics. When you integrate prisons, you get the Aryan Brotherhood, a shamrock tattoo in either case. There is a void there, that thing. Gregory When you bus Roxbury kids into Southie, you get poor whites on welfare voting for reaganomics.

When you integrate prisons, you get the Aryan Brotherhood, a shamrock tattoo in either case.

There is a void there, that thing.

Gregory

]]> By: Matt Wardman http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8292 Matt Wardman Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:12:06 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8292 Edwin I'd be interested in your comments on my more detailed paper linked from this article. Rgds Matt Edwin

I’d be interested in your comments on my more detailed paper linked from this article.

Rgds

Matt

]]> By: Edwin Greenwood http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8290 Edwin Greenwood Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:14:27 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8290 I don't think Griffin's control is quite as complete as you suggest. Recall the business of the EHRC prosecuting the party over its "Whites only" membership policy. When the BNP initially went to court and then caved in, there was a certain amount of smug chortling among the Righteous Left. I suspect however that Griffin was executing a planned manoeuvre to frighten the hard-core elements of his membership into accepting the unavoidable rule change instead of splitting off to form a new party. I agree with the Heresiarch that the BNP differs from the other parties more in degree than in essence in this regard. Can we seriously claim that the modern Labour party is afflicted by serious internal democracy. I don’t think Griffin’s control is quite as complete as you suggest. Recall the business of the EHRC prosecuting the party over its “Whites only” membership policy. When the BNP initially went to court and then caved in, there was a certain amount of smug chortling among the Righteous Left. I suspect however that Griffin was executing a planned manoeuvre to frighten the hard-core elements of his membership into accepting the unavoidable rule change instead of splitting off to form a new party.

I agree with the Heresiarch that the BNP differs from the other parties more in degree than in essence in this regard. Can we seriously claim that the modern Labour party is afflicted by serious internal democracy.

]]> By: Matt Wardman http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8275 Matt Wardman Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:14:00 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8275 Heh. Copyright Law allows it for valid editorial reasons. I wonder if his estate could trademark the image of Churchill and go for Griffin on that basis. Heh. Copyright Law allows it for valid editorial reasons.

I wonder if his estate could trademark the image of Churchill and go for Griffin on that basis.

]]> By: Techno Mystic http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8267 Techno Mystic Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:13:52 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8267 I heard recently that Nick Griffin has copyrighted the BNP logo and won't let anybody use it on their personal blogs. It's bizarre. I heard recently that Nick Griffin has copyrighted the BNP logo and won’t let anybody use it on their personal blogs.

It’s bizarre.

]]> By: Matt Wardman http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8260 Matt Wardman Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:24:40 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8260 @Heresiach How far is that desirable? @Heresiach

How far is that desirable?

]]> By: Matt Wardman http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8259 Matt Wardman Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:23:12 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8259 My original paper that this came from was written to tryand explore some alternative critique lines on the BNP other than "they are racists". The points that struck me about the BNP was that it is all personalised in Griffin, making him a "Fuhrer" by the dictionary definition, and that the "I'll try and get my party to be more reasonable about our constitution" was therefore just marketing flim-flam. I can see nothing to prevent Griffin turning it into a Social Democrat setup if he and a few mates have a Damascene Conversion, which would be ... fun. If they did move to a more democratic setup, it may or may not be accompanied by the move towards the mainstream that happened (if I havem my history correct) in the Austrian Freedom Party. How purely "democratic" parties should be is an interesting question - I'd say it's a fairly subtle balance, and the balance changes between periods of opposition and government as the party has or does not have popular support. We don't want party leadership by ballot any more than we want Government purely by Referendum. I don't have an intimate knowledge of the inside of any UK party, but my theory on New Labour is that the process was to win control then pull up the ladder afterwards to protect the leadership, by a variety of measures including altering the control of the policy-making process, neutering the Conference, having approved candidates parachuted in, and others including dirty backroom tricks. The irony is that in doing so, the natural mechanism for longer term change was made crystalline, so that now it is almost impossible to replace the "Project" with the "Next Project" without shattering everything. How quickly they can resolve that will determine how quickly they can bring new ideas for Government. My original paper that this came from was written to tryand explore some alternative critique lines on the BNP other than “they are racists”.

The points that struck me about the BNP was that it is all personalised in Griffin, making him a “Fuhrer” by the dictionary definition, and that the “I’ll try and get my party to be more reasonable about our constitution” was therefore just marketing flim-flam.

I can see nothing to prevent Griffin turning it into a Social Democrat setup if he and a few mates have a Damascene Conversion, which would be … fun.

If they did move to a more democratic setup, it may or may not be accompanied by the move towards the mainstream that happened (if I havem my history correct) in the Austrian Freedom Party.

How purely “democratic” parties should be is an interesting question – I’d say it’s a fairly subtle balance, and the balance changes between periods of opposition and government as the party has or does not have popular support. We don’t want party leadership by ballot any more than we want Government purely by Referendum.

I don’t have an intimate knowledge of the inside of any UK party, but my theory on New Labour is that the process was to win control then pull up the ladder afterwards to protect the leadership, by a variety of measures including altering the control of the policy-making process, neutering the Conference, having approved candidates parachuted in, and others including dirty backroom tricks.

The irony is that in doing so, the natural mechanism for longer term change was made crystalline, so that now it is almost impossible to replace the “Project” with the “Next Project” without shattering everything. How quickly they can resolve that will determine how quickly they can bring new ideas for Government.

]]> By: John http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8255 John Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:46:59 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8255 (I don’t know much about the LibDems, but even there, I suspect, power has been slowly accreting to the centre.) You just should have used the first 7 words. (I don’t know much about the LibDems, but even there, I suspect, power has been slowly accreting to the centre.)

You just should have used the first 7 words.

]]> By: JuliaM http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8254 JuliaM Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:17:23 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8254 <i>"...and that scrutiny of the BNP should now focus on these aspects."</i> That would certainly have the advantage of not getting sidetracked in the 'you disapprove of the BNP so you must approve of mass immigration' that these threads tend to devolve into, wouldn't it? “…and that scrutiny of the BNP should now focus on these aspects.”

That would certainly have the advantage of not getting sidetracked in the ‘you disapprove of the BNP so you must approve of mass immigration’ that these threads tend to devolve into, wouldn’t it?

]]> By: Heresiarch http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/10/guest-post-the-undemocratic-nature-of-the-bnp.html/comment-page-1#comment-8253 Heresiarch Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:13:25 +0000 http://charlottegore.com/?p=1858#comment-8253 The BNP seems to be ahead of the curve here, Matt. Most parties are heading in that direction. Control from the centre, achieved by hollowing-out, by-passing rigging and in some cases abolishing democratic structures, was the defining feature of the "New Labour" revolution. At a slightly less intrusive manner, central control has been imposed (or attempted to be imposed) on the Conservatives, starting with changes introduced under William Hague and now seen, eg, in attempts to override local choice of candidates in key seats. I don't know much about the LibDems, but even there, I suspect, power has been slowly accreting to the centre. The situation is more extreme (as everything is more extreme) in the BNP, I've no doubt. But this is perhaps largely because Griffin can get away with more personal control, not because he wants it any more than leaders of mainstream parties do. The BNP seems to be ahead of the curve here, Matt. Most parties are heading in that direction. Control from the centre, achieved by hollowing-out, by-passing rigging and in some cases abolishing democratic structures, was the defining feature of the “New Labour” revolution. At a slightly less intrusive manner, central control has been imposed (or attempted to be imposed) on the Conservatives, starting with changes introduced under William Hague and now seen, eg, in attempts to override local choice of candidates in key seats. I don’t know much about the LibDems, but even there, I suspect, power has been slowly accreting to the centre.

The situation is more extreme (as everything is more extreme) in the BNP, I’ve no doubt. But this is perhaps largely because Griffin can get away with more personal control, not because he wants it any more than leaders of mainstream parties do.

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