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	<title>Comments on: A Miscarriage of Justice</title>
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	<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html</link>
	<description>Free Trade and Free Minds. Politics for Reasonable People. Independent Political Blogging. Top 20 Blog. Libertarianism. Laser Kitties.</description>
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		<title>By: Liberal Conspiracy &#187; Man arrested for returning gun goes free</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-9691</link>
		<dc:creator>Liberal Conspiracy &#187; Man arrested for returning gun goes free</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-9691</guid>
		<description>[...] the outraged nutjob bloggers and their commenters who went round saying that his conviction and fast-approaching five-year [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the outraged nutjob bloggers and their commenters who went round saying that his conviction and fast-approaching five-year [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Breaking news: Rightwing nutjob bloggers proved wrong as judicial sense prevails. &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-9682</link>
		<dc:creator>Breaking news: Rightwing nutjob bloggers proved wrong as judicial sense prevails. &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-9682</guid>
		<description>[...] the outraged nutjob bloggers and their commenters who went round saying that his conviction and fast-approaching five-year [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the outraged nutjob bloggers and their commenters who went round saying that his conviction and fast-approaching five-year [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Carlin</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8386</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Carlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8386</guid>
		<description>&#124;For example, someone could walk into a gay club with a shotgun and get caught by the police, only to plead that they had no intention of using and should therefore be excused jail. See where this all gets messy?&quot;

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/ProductImages/Shotgun.jpg

That dude, I would give a free pass to. 

Anybody who sticks their tongue out to aim, I just feel, society has to have a little headroom for tongue sticker outers.

Gregory</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>|For example, someone could walk into a gay club with a shotgun and get caught by the police, only to plead that they had no intention of using and should therefore be excused jail. See where this all gets messy?&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/ProductImages/Shotgun.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/ProductImages/Shotgun.jpg</a></p>
<p>That dude, I would give a free pass to. </p>
<p>Anybody who sticks their tongue out to aim, I just feel, society has to have a little headroom for tongue sticker outers.</p>
<p>Gregory</p>
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		<title>By: Rankersbo (Simon Jerram)</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8365</link>
		<dc:creator>Rankersbo (Simon Jerram)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8365</guid>
		<description>Of course he did &lt;i&gt;something&lt;/i&gt; wrong. 

But something that warrented him being charged? No.

Had he just been given a bit of a grilling and let go I would not question this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course he did <i>something</i> wrong. </p>
<p>But something that warrented him being charged? No.</p>
<p>Had he just been given a bit of a grilling and let go I would not question this.</p>
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		<title>By: Oranjepan</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8364</link>
		<dc:creator>Oranjepan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8364</guid>
		<description>@surreptitious evil
exactly, the law already encompasses an acceptance for the legitimate use of force, which means the legal argument by the prosecutor is unsustainable without explicitly recognising those exceptions - and this requires taking the context into account. 

For the individual any discernable intentions are clearly a factor in determining whether a crime has been committed, just as they are definitely a mitigating or aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing.

Relying on purely technical arguments about whether the letter of the law has been adhered to is a retrograde step towards dogmatism, and which, as we have seen in the expenses scandal, is no defense from the ire of the public.

True justice is about the spirit of the law.

So if any gap opens up between the spirit and the letter of the law then that creates an argument for political change... just one more to add to the pile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@surreptitious evil<br />
exactly, the law already encompasses an acceptance for the legitimate use of force, which means the legal argument by the prosecutor is unsustainable without explicitly recognising those exceptions &#8211; and this requires taking the context into account. </p>
<p>For the individual any discernable intentions are clearly a factor in determining whether a crime has been committed, just as they are definitely a mitigating or aggravating factor when it comes to sentencing.</p>
<p>Relying on purely technical arguments about whether the letter of the law has been adhered to is a retrograde step towards dogmatism, and which, as we have seen in the expenses scandal, is no defense from the ire of the public.</p>
<p>True justice is about the spirit of the law.</p>
<p>So if any gap opens up between the spirit and the letter of the law then that creates an argument for political change&#8230; just one more to add to the pile.</p>
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		<title>By: Ispettore</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8363</link>
		<dc:creator>Ispettore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8363</guid>
		<description>Letters from a Tory - until New Labour arrived on the scene with lots of young police officers and prosecutors who demonstrated an astounding ignorance of the &quot;old&quot; law, mens rea was an essential component of criminal offences.

&quot;If someone’s intentions are taken into account, then you will presumably place the verdict of innocence or guilt on the basis of what they say.&quot;

No, you will base it on the rest of the evidence and whether you believe their account or not. That used to be the basis for English justice - guilt had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and the state of mind of the alleged perpetrator was taken into account, were the consequences intended? - but that was before trial by tabloid and the &quot;if you are accused you must be guilty&quot; mantra brought to these shores in 1997.

The concept of guilty intent - mens rea -seems to have been abandoned hence so many people being locked up for accidents and &quot;strict liability&quot; offences. It makes me suspicious, as though the state are deliberately flexing their muscles and cowing ordinary people with the fear of doing something wrong - even relatively minor - and being banged up for it in order to exert more control over us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Letters from a Tory &#8211; until New Labour arrived on the scene with lots of young police officers and prosecutors who demonstrated an astounding ignorance of the &#8220;old&#8221; law, mens rea was an essential component of criminal offences.</p>
<p>&#8220;If someone’s intentions are taken into account, then you will presumably place the verdict of innocence or guilt on the basis of what they say.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, you will base it on the rest of the evidence and whether you believe their account or not. That used to be the basis for English justice &#8211; guilt had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and the state of mind of the alleged perpetrator was taken into account, were the consequences intended? &#8211; but that was before trial by tabloid and the &#8220;if you are accused you must be guilty&#8221; mantra brought to these shores in 1997.</p>
<p>The concept of guilty intent &#8211; mens rea -seems to have been abandoned hence so many people being locked up for accidents and &#8220;strict liability&#8221; offences. It makes me suspicious, as though the state are deliberately flexing their muscles and cowing ordinary people with the fear of doing something wrong &#8211; even relatively minor &#8211; and being banged up for it in order to exert more control over us.</p>
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		<title>By: Letters From A Tory</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8362</link>
		<dc:creator>Letters From A Tory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8362</guid>
		<description>I think this situation is more nuanced that you give it credit for.

If someone&#039;s intentions are taken into account, then you will presumably place the verdict of innocence or guilt on the basis of what they say.  For example, someone could walk into a gay club with a shotgun and get caught by the police, only to plead that they had no intention of using and should therefore be excused jail.

See where this all gets messy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this situation is more nuanced that you give it credit for.</p>
<p>If someone&#8217;s intentions are taken into account, then you will presumably place the verdict of innocence or guilt on the basis of what they say.  For example, someone could walk into a gay club with a shotgun and get caught by the police, only to plead that they had no intention of using and should therefore be excused jail.</p>
<p>See where this all gets messy?</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Mandelson of Ballymacarrett</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8355</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Mandelson of Ballymacarrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8355</guid>
		<description>R. v  Ronald Smart - Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh, rings a bell

&quot;It appears to us to be inherent in that statement that he possessed the necessary mens rea (intention) in making the images concerned,&quot; he said. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4677882.stm

I did this, as a public spirited act etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R. v  Ronald Smart &#8211; Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh, rings a bell</p>
<p>&#8220;It appears to us to be inherent in that statement that he possessed the necessary mens rea (intention) in making the images concerned,&#8221; he said. </p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4677882.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4677882.stm</a></p>
<p>I did this, as a public spirited act etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Carlin</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8354</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Carlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8354</guid>
		<description>&quot;The thing that puzzles me about this ’strict liability’ offence is, how do they get around that when they want to run these sort of ‘We’re doing something about gun crime, no really, we ARE..’ initiatives for the benefit of the press?&quot;

Like a helpful villain, who wants to do a General de Chastelain? -  Well they get a dude, he&#039;s dun stuff, ya know jobs, he&#039;s gotta eat, and that means bank withdrawals -  the peelers want him in the witness protection program, problem is, 

he is caught with a 9mm biscuit whilst delivering pizza to a women&#039;s refuge in Leeds, it was his fault really,  it was a reality TV set the West Yorkshire police were doing about Slovakian Big Issues sellers  

The piece is sent down to London, and ballistically tested on a Brazilian consultant for the World Wildlife Fund.

The Home Secretary needs to get rid of the witnesses, and who better to call than the Poppy Project, because if you need a no-witness solution, you need gold standard experts. 

‘We’re doing something about gun crime, no really, we ARE..’ 

far-frigging-out - but what?

Gregory</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The thing that puzzles me about this ’strict liability’ offence is, how do they get around that when they want to run these sort of ‘We’re doing something about gun crime, no really, we ARE..’ initiatives for the benefit of the press?&#8221;</p>
<p>Like a helpful villain, who wants to do a General de Chastelain? &#8211;  Well they get a dude, he&#8217;s dun stuff, ya know jobs, he&#8217;s gotta eat, and that means bank withdrawals &#8211;  the peelers want him in the witness protection program, problem is, </p>
<p>he is caught with a 9mm biscuit whilst delivering pizza to a women&#8217;s refuge in Leeds, it was his fault really,  it was a reality TV set the West Yorkshire police were doing about Slovakian Big Issues sellers  </p>
<p>The piece is sent down to London, and ballistically tested on a Brazilian consultant for the World Wildlife Fund.</p>
<p>The Home Secretary needs to get rid of the witnesses, and who better to call than the Poppy Project, because if you need a no-witness solution, you need gold standard experts. </p>
<p>‘We’re doing something about gun crime, no really, we ARE..’ </p>
<p>far-frigging-out &#8211; but what?</p>
<p>Gregory</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://charlottegore.com/2009/11/14/a-miscarriage-of-justice.html/comment-page-1#comment-8353</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charlottegore.com/?p=1945#comment-8353</guid>
		<description>&quot;What are people meant to do? Is the correct course of action to phone the police and not touch the gun? That is what I would have done personally.&quot;

Make the call from a public phone booth, and give a false name. Don&#039;t give them any reason to nick and charge you. A bit difficult for this gentleman, admittedly, as the firearm was on his premises.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What are people meant to do? Is the correct course of action to phone the police and not touch the gun? That is what I would have done personally.&#8221;</p>
<p>Make the call from a public phone booth, and give a false name. Don&#8217;t give them any reason to nick and charge you. A bit difficult for this gentleman, admittedly, as the firearm was on his premises.</p>
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